Did Intel screw up big time by selling its embedded processors?

[Database Administrator]

Dombo wrote:
> Andrew Smallshaw schreef:
>> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>
>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>
>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>
>> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
>> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
>> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
>> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
>> case.
>
> Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget has
> been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone will
> impress anyone in two years from now?
>

That's the throw-away society mentality. Many people like me do not buy
into that concept. You'd be surprised about the legacy stuff out here
that is in top shape. A few radios from the 50's, a heavy piano from the
time Edison electric light hadn't been invented yet, etc.

Even in my lab you'll find tools such as this:
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/Dip_59.htm

Other than cell phones and laptops where you don't get a choice I
usually never buy a product if there is a similar one available that
lives with AA cells.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[Database Administrator]

Joerg wrote:


> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
> and can take batteries at any stage, but only standard sizes such as AA,
> C, D and 9V. There is only a little more than an hour between worship
> services and that works. Very successful since more than three years. In
> fact we are still using the first set of batteries. Some are now way
> past the 1000 cycle spec and still like new. Amazing.

This charger is good:

http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/900/index.php

It measures the performance for each battery. After several years of the
normal use, good NiMHs are down to about 70% of the initial capacity.
Sometimes there are the bad batches of NiMHs, too.

>> P.S.: There _are_ bad trends in battery technology, but that's not
>> using Li*.
>
>
> Sure, but what are you going to do if you are at the bottom of the
> Zugspitze and your batteries run out?

Unfortunately the regulations don't allow for the generic standalone
LiIon rechargeables because of the fire hazard. You can have LiIons only
as a battery pack with the proper protection.


Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com

[Database Administrator]

Joerg wrote:

[..."never understand"...]

>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>> charger), at any temperature?
>
>Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>and can take batteries at any stage,

Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.

And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
don't know how to solve the task I described.

There are great applications for NiMH, especially since low self
discharge is available. But Li* offers a lot of advantages over them.
_I understand_ very good why they are used.

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Munich
despammed.com might be broken, use Reply-To:

[Database Administrator]

Oliver Betz wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [..."never understand"...]
>
>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>> charger), at any temperature?
>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>
> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>

That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
charged battery into his or her wireless microphone, gets distracted,
leaves it on the table. Someone else sees it there on the table, assumes
it was a depleted one and plugs it into the Ansmann charger. No problem.
At least not in about three years, else I would have seen lots of
damaged batteries because I am the guy who installed this.


> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>

Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
possibly want?


> There are great applications for NiMH, especially since low self
> discharge is available. But Li* offers a lot of advantages over them.
> _I understand_ very good why they are used.
>

LiIon is great but not everywhere. They are expensive and there is no
ubiquitous availability. Once upon a time Compaq had the idea of
standardizing laptop packs to some extent and make sure they were at
least sold at major airports but that effort seems to have fizzled.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

[Database Administrator]

Joerg wrote:

[..."never understand"...]

>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>
>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>
>That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly

The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
batteries reliably.

Or maybe you simply don't notice that the batteries get hotter than
usual when they are inserted fully charged.

[...]

>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>
>Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>possibly want?

You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").

You also didn't comment the temperature range.

Maybe you confused the "cast-iron" (SCNR) NiCd with NiMH. NiCd was
pretty tolerant and wide temperature range cells are still available
for special applications.

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Munich
despammed.com might be broken, use Reply-To:

[Database Administrator]

Oliver Betz wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [..."never understand"...]
>
>>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>> That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
>
> The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
> which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
> batteries reliably.
>

I'd have to dig that out but AFAIR it is the "Energy 16" model. We have
two of those in use.


> Or maybe you simply don't notice that the batteries get hotter than
> usual when they are inserted fully charged.
>

That is one thing I tested when we received the chargers. Inserted a
battery that was full for a 2nd time. Nothing got very hot. This was
with 9V 250mAh cells, also from Ansmann.

All we really care about at church is that this concept works reliably.
And it does. The pastor would have had a chat with me if the mikes would
quit in the middle of a worship service. Before we had these chargers
that was a constant problem but I haven't heard a single complaint in
the whole three years we are on Ansmann chargers/batteries. I guess this
company knows a thing or two about rechargeables. My only (small) gripe
would be that the LEDs in there begin to fade away.


> [...]
>
>>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>> Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>> charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>> possibly want?
>
> You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
> available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
> power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
> are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").
>

One common trick is to accumulate (capacitor), then issue low duty cycle
bursts are higher currents.


> You also didn't comment the temperature range.
>

Well, batteries in general do not like high temperatures. AFAIK the
Ansmann charger does not measure the ambient temperature but I might be
wrong (it would be easy).


> Maybe you confused the "cast-iron" (SCNR) NiCd with NiMH. NiCd was
> pretty tolerant and wide temperature range cells are still available
> for special applications.
>

NiCd is very much preferable for some applications, especially phones on
trickle charge. They have been outlawed in many places but here in the
US we can still buy them at the supermarkets. Usually not as single AA
cells though, more as battery packs for phones and then they always want
>$7 per pack, up to as much as $15. Could almost get a new phone for
that :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

[Database Administrator]

Joerg schreef:
> Dombo wrote:
>> Andrew Smallshaw schreef:
>>> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>>
>>> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
>>> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
>>> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
>>> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
>>> case.
>>
>> Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget
>> has been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone
>> will impress anyone in two years from now?
>>
>
> That's the throw-away society mentality. Many people like me do not buy
> into that concept. You'd be surprised about the legacy stuff out here
> that is in top shape.

I think you'd be surprised to see how much 'legacy' electronics I have
in my home. However I don't consider myself to be representative for the
majority of people. And whether I like it or not that is what most
products are aimed at, for understandable reasons.

> A few radios from the 50's, a heavy piano from the
> time Edison electric light hadn't been invented yet, etc.
>
> Even in my lab you'll find tools such as this:
> http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/Dip_59.htm
>
> Other than cell phones and laptops where you don't get a choice I
> usually never buy a product if there is a similar one available that
> lives with AA cells.

Neither do I, but most people really don't give a damn.

[Database Administrator]

Dombo wrote:
> Joerg schreef:
>> Dombo wrote:
>>> Andrew Smallshaw schreef:
>>>> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>>>
>>>> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
>>>> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
>>>> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
>>>> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
>>>> case.
>>>
>>> Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget
>>> has been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone
>>> will impress anyone in two years from now?
>>>
>>
>> That's the throw-away society mentality. Many people like me do not
>> buy into that concept. You'd be surprised about the legacy stuff out
>> here that is in top shape.
>
> I think you'd be surprised to see how much 'legacy' electronics I have
> in my home. However I don't consider myself to be representative for the
> majority of people. And whether I like it or not that is what most
> products are aimed at, for understandable reasons.
>

Talking about legacy and not throwing anything away this is the wood
splitter from a friend I used a while ago. Built around the front axle
of a 1930's DeSoto, a discarded Caterpillar piston, a 1942 army engine
and all kinds of other junked parts. Even the gas tank gasket was cut
from an old shoe and somewhere on this rig was a soldered-shut Altoids
can. You'll get a kick out of this "wild thang":

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/splitter.JPG

Started faithfully every single time, by draping a piece of rope around
a pulley and closing the eyes in order not to get his with stuff.
*KAPOW!* ... chugga ... chugga ... poof ... vroooom. Rust pieces
exploded out the exhaust muffler which by the way consisted of standard
water pipes welded together.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.